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	<title>Comments on: Wrong Side of History Part 5: Deconstructing Joe Vogel&#8217;s Lament</title>
	<atom:link href="http://independentbloghorn.com/2008/12/wrong-side-of-history-part-5-deconstructing-joe-vogels-lament/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://independentbloghorn.com/2008/12/wrong-side-of-history-part-5-deconstructing-joe-vogels-lament/</link>
	<description>It takes something obnoxious to avert stupidity</description>
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		<title>By: chuckles</title>
		<link>http://independentbloghorn.com/2008/12/wrong-side-of-history-part-5-deconstructing-joe-vogels-lament/comment-page-1/#comment-90</link>
		<dc:creator>chuckles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 04:29:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://independentbloghorn.com/?p=55#comment-90</guid>
		<description>Forgive me, but I see a bit of a straw man in your generalization and feel you may be jumping to unnecessary, perhaps reckless conclusions. 

To your first point, It is not that there is no &#039;empirical evidence&#039; that history is not exclusively linear. The burden of proof does not rest on history being exclusively linear, but &#039;generally&#039; linear. And even that&#039;s being generous. (I might point out, there is in fact PLENTY of evidence. What is lacking is historical consensus—which actually puts it in pretty good company). I get the sense from your posting that, if there is no proof that history is linear or cyclical, (or anything else) it is therefore in a state of chaos, and nothing can be interpreted one way or the other. A bit anarchistic for a religious man such as yourself, but that&#039;s neither here nor there. Anyway, I still follow your argument (flawed though it may be). But I couldn&#039;t quite make your next logical leap: because your clause is true (big assumption), therefore the Gay Marriage movement has no footing. i.e. because &#039;tone&#039; they invoke in their writing hints at a claim to a linear history, progress in the direction of more rights for a greater number of people (for which, I say again, there is a WEALTH of evidence). Just because history does not follow an exact trajectory does not mean it is rudderless. History is &#039;largely&#039; linear, with aberrations and anomalies. And, a great many argue that the gay marriage ban with Prop 8 was one such aberration, as Proposition 8 was the first ballot measure ever enacted to remove rights already granted a segment of the population.

Let&#039;s look at this another way. Sure, history is not entirely linear. But civil rights history in democratized countries, for the most part, is; at least since the enlightenment. As stated above, Prop 8 was the first measure in history to REMOVE rights already granted a people. So, if we are in favour of this as a general principle, we could be equally excited about disenfranchising women, or African-Americans. Your arguments are not new. They were floated by segregationalist in the 1870s, defenders of &quot;separate but equal&quot; in the 1950s (our friend Strom Thurmond ran on this platform for president... there may be a future for you in politics), or, if there were any, it could have been used by those fighting for a repeal of interracial marriage bans effective in the United States until the late 1960s. 

Fun as your first idea was, your final conclusion is utter nonsense.  Because a select few resort to vandalism, the entire movement has joined the ranks of some of the &quot;worst social movements in history&quot;. Really? are we playing the NAZI card for people who broke a couple windows in a California church? Hyperbole doesn&#039;t begin to describe your leap. But this is to be expected. Hendrick Hertzburg of the New Yorker said, &quot;Like a polluted swamp, anti-gay bigotry is likely to get thicker and more toxic as it dries up. Viciousness meets viscousness.&quot; 

And that&#039;s not even to say that I disagree with you entirely! I only, humbly, request a bit more rigor in the argumentation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Forgive me, but I see a bit of a straw man in your generalization and feel you may be jumping to unnecessary, perhaps reckless conclusions. </p>
<p>To your first point, It is not that there is no &#8216;empirical evidence&#8217; that history is not exclusively linear. The burden of proof does not rest on history being exclusively linear, but &#8216;generally&#8217; linear. And even that&#8217;s being generous. (I might point out, there is in fact PLENTY of evidence. What is lacking is historical consensus—which actually puts it in pretty good company). I get the sense from your posting that, if there is no proof that history is linear or cyclical, (or anything else) it is therefore in a state of chaos, and nothing can be interpreted one way or the other. A bit anarchistic for a religious man such as yourself, but that&#8217;s neither here nor there. Anyway, I still follow your argument (flawed though it may be). But I couldn&#8217;t quite make your next logical leap: because your clause is true (big assumption), therefore the Gay Marriage movement has no footing. i.e. because &#8216;tone&#8217; they invoke in their writing hints at a claim to a linear history, progress in the direction of more rights for a greater number of people (for which, I say again, there is a WEALTH of evidence). Just because history does not follow an exact trajectory does not mean it is rudderless. History is &#8216;largely&#8217; linear, with aberrations and anomalies. And, a great many argue that the gay marriage ban with Prop 8 was one such aberration, as Proposition 8 was the first ballot measure ever enacted to remove rights already granted a segment of the population.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s look at this another way. Sure, history is not entirely linear. But civil rights history in democratized countries, for the most part, is; at least since the enlightenment. As stated above, Prop 8 was the first measure in history to REMOVE rights already granted a people. So, if we are in favour of this as a general principle, we could be equally excited about disenfranchising women, or African-Americans. Your arguments are not new. They were floated by segregationalist in the 1870s, defenders of &#8220;separate but equal&#8221; in the 1950s (our friend Strom Thurmond ran on this platform for president&#8230; there may be a future for you in politics), or, if there were any, it could have been used by those fighting for a repeal of interracial marriage bans effective in the United States until the late 1960s. </p>
<p>Fun as your first idea was, your final conclusion is utter nonsense.  Because a select few resort to vandalism, the entire movement has joined the ranks of some of the &#8220;worst social movements in history&#8221;. Really? are we playing the NAZI card for people who broke a couple windows in a California church? Hyperbole doesn&#8217;t begin to describe your leap. But this is to be expected. Hendrick Hertzburg of the New Yorker said, &#8220;Like a polluted swamp, anti-gay bigotry is likely to get thicker and more toxic as it dries up. Viciousness meets viscousness.&#8221; </p>
<p>And that&#8217;s not even to say that I disagree with you entirely! I only, humbly, request a bit more rigor in the argumentation.</p>
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